I recognize there is a massive anti incarnation argument (in the US). I agree with many of the points and reasons I’ve heard. That said, murderers, child molesters etcetera are still gonna exist to some degree no matter what. So, without incarnation, what are some options?
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One of the things is not like the others…
jaywalkers, enemys of society #1.
Did you mean incarceration?
Sure
Tell the murderers and child molesters: We’re letting you go with a warning this time. But if you even think about anything reprehensible again, we’ll lock you up with the JAYWALKERS.
/s
anti incarceration
This is the greatest bait I’ve ever seen. Dying laughing at jaywalkers lmao. Teach me your ways king
Not bait, I added that just to bring some levity to a real rough conversation.
do you want results or to enact self righteous suffering in the name of punishment
Results ideally
then you really don’t want US style incarceration for like 99.9% of cases
you want therapy, job training and some form of assisted (but restricted) living, kinda like a halfway home
but it needs to be well funded and have strong oversight
all that to say it’ll never happen in the us because that makes it hard to extract profit from the system
Poverty and proximity are major factors increasing and sustaining crime, and if people don’t commit crimes they don’t become incarcerated prisoners. So better social systems for people who need it and forcing wealthy citizens to co-locate with poor citizens so they have to share the same goods and services instead of allowing a multi class system in everything but name. And for the US obviously outlawing for profit prisons and the prison slavery clause of the 13th amendment. No crime justifies slavery as a punishment. That’ll reduce prison populations by such a large amount that you could easily manage rehabilitation and humane incarceration programs for each individual.
I can absolutely agree with outlawing for profit prisons and abolishing the 13th amendment. Thanks for the contribution!
Prisons more like European prisons that focuses on rehabilitation not isolation. Not slave labour camps the Americans call jails.
Yeah that seems reasonable. Definitely agree on how fucked up using prisoner labor is.
Not all can be rehabilitated: some just are wired THAT different, & butcher people for fun, because that’s the way they’re wired.
Ignoring that is the making-believing that makes such believers into accessory-to-murder when the not-contained serial-murderer murders yet-another.
There was a story, maybe a few years ago, a woman who wouldn’t accept that an inmate was really destructive-of-life, she befriended him, & got butchered.
Leftist got ate by leopards.
( it isn’t only the right which demonstrates idiocy! )
The problem is that categories exist, & our whole system is pretending that it’s a spectrum, instead of distinct-categories, with spectrums … sorta-overlapping … each category.
Some absolutely need to be permanently segregated from communities.
& the idiocy of putting people into a criminality-manufacturing-pressure-cooker while gaslighting about that somehow being “corrections”, needs to be terminated.
Correct the problem-motivation/wrong-mental-function, aversion-therapy may well be part of that, but don’t increase the criminality in them, & do offer them humanness-improvement opportunity & asssitance.
_ /\ _
A focus on rehabilitation doesn’t mean releasing dangerous predators into society. Merely that rehabilitation is the focus, rather than punishment or profit.
Correct. Some simply require a permanent albeit humane separation from civil society. Anders Breivik is an example of this.
Absolutely my take. People who are harmful to society need to be removed from society for the good of society. These people should be treated humanely, and we need to accept that a great many of them behave the way they were taught. What we need to do while society is being protected from them is teach them how to behave in society. For those that accept that their behavior needs to change and learn new behavior, great. Release them on parole, monitor and assist them to make sure the new behavior is being maintained and let them continue with their lives. For those who don’t or won’t learn to behave in society, keep them isolated from society in a humane environment with people there to make sure the recalcitrant and incorrigible aren’t harming themselves and each other, and move on.
And all that leads to the question of what is harmful to society…
Death camps.
jaywalkers
well jaywalking is automotive industry propaganda, so I wouldn’t do shit about it. I’m not even kidding. cars were killing people, and that didn’t look good for the new auto industry, so they did the usual US politics thing and did a PR campaign to blame the victims for cars running them over. then they paid politicians to pass legislation they drafted that criminalized walking anywhere where the auto industry thought they shouldn’t. if I had a choice, I would take most of the money from the inflated US defense budget, increase public transportation as much as possible and useful, and then outlaw personal vehicles in cities. the roads would be torn torn up and left as single lanes for emergency vehicles and public transportation. the rest of what used to be roads would be turned into green spaces for people to walk and socialize, and do some community gardening.
what was left from the defense budget would more than pay for universal healthcare. everyone would be happier, healthier, and less people would die from vehicle accidents or respiratory cancers.
TLDR: jaywalking is capitalist nonsense.
Um, I think the inclusion of jaywalkers in the title was a joke.
They got my vote in the process
…wow… thank you for the contribution.
how would you deal with murderers, rapists, child predators
okay… interesting question…
and jaywalkers
Wat? 🧐
If I were arrested for jaywalking, I would definitely request the death penalty.
It’s a shame they’d probably reject it.
Just a silly addition to add some levity to a very serious topic/question.
People have no sense of humor. I’m still surprised that no “smart aleck” has corrected you on the “encarnation” thing.
Why the downvotes? It is a perfectly reasonable topic to discuss, and an interesting one at that.
I’d be willing to bet part of it is the fact when I comment or post in shitpost/memes I troll. So lots of people have tagged me with “bad faith” “troll”, etcetera. When I post/comment here and in serious communities I speak genuinely. My over a dozen posts and 1500+ comments here and in serious communities are proof of that. However, that doesn’t dissuade them from thinking I can’t switch to serious. Idk personally if I couldn’t code switch well I literally wouldn’t have survived my childhood. So its just kind of natural for me to speak differently in different environments. Which is how I view communities here. I think the same type of folks will downvote it because I included jaywalking to keep it somewhat light.
Yeah that’s not complicated to understand… Some people take their lives on internet forums far to seriously 🤣…
Yeah, I’m currently trying to get one to stop interacting with me.
you can block people
Sounds about right, good luck haha!
Jaywalkers LOL
I think the addition is contributing to downvotes. But, I just figured some levity in a ultra rough topic is nice.
In concept, it’s simple: Identify the conditions that lead people into anti-social behaviors, and change those conditions to encourage pro-social behavior instead. That way, not only do we avoid having to incarcerate people, we don’t have victims anymore. This may sound abstract and hand-wavey, so as a concrete example, crime is way, way down compared to the 1970’s, and it seems to have a lot to do with eliminating leaded gasoline, and allowing abortion. A concerted effort to reduce poverty would go a long way to reducing crime rates even further.
Social influence (culture, social norms, peer pressure, etc.) is the most effective way to keep people in line. Laws do diddly-squat. Most people respond to their life conditions and surroundings, including what people even think of as crime. For a good example, instead of jaywalking, consider speeding. It’s against the law, but socially promoted, so virtually all drivers do it even though it’s against the law. Or, consider a “law-and-order conservative” business owner whose social circle wants to see the heads of the local panhandlers cracked, but happily engages in wage theft from his employees, and whose pastor at church is diddling kids. Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don’t tolerate crime in the first place.
Even people who don’t respond to social influence, the sociopaths, can be handled more productively. They still have motivations and needs that, while disconnected from empathy, still guide their behavior. They’re still essentially rational people, too. There’s a program here at the Mendota Mental Health Institute that works to rehabilitate sociopathic people who’ve landed in the criminal justice system. They’ve had good success by identifying what these young men want, and explaining/demonstrating to them (i.e. through their rational faculties) that they can get what they want long-term by learning and following society’s rules. I know a guy who is/was deficient in empathy, and landed in jail, where his therapists helped him exercise and develop his empathy. Smart dude, and now he’s got a productive job where he’s invaluable to the company. The concept is again deceptively simple: As an intelligent man, he learned to consciously ask himself, how would I feel if my actions were instead applied to me? He uses the Golden Rule, essentially.
Let me flip this around and ask why do we consider prison as an appropriate way to “deal” with murderers, rapists, and child predators? I would point out that the United States has a huge prison population, and murderers, rapists, and child predators. If the threat of prison were an effective deterrent, why is that? (To unload the question, I’ll say that I believe that we practice incarceration as a morality play by which we re-assure ourselves that we are good people compared to the criminal scum. It has nothing whatsoever to do with concern for victims.)
So, implement changes in society that curb those behaviors? I feel like it’s not that simple and some people are born fucked up. Just feels idealistic that people will just stop raping, killing and molesting if they also have access to some resources. How would you quantify
"Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don’t tolerate crime in the first place. " what does that look like in practice, if not prison/execution.
Thank you for the contribution so far.
Yeah, some people are just born fucked up, and putting them in prison to handle it is a bad way to handle them. What do I mean? Well, when people are born fucked up, it’s usually pretty obvious. A lot of the infamous mass shooters that come to mind, people knew. In some cases, they tried desperately to get somebody to help do something about it.
But our system (correctly, IMO) operates on the principle of innocent until proven guilty. That is, we have to wait for fucked up people to hurt somebody else before we can put them in prison. Better would be a system that addresses mental health concerns and anti-social personality issues that people around them could draw upon, rather than just relying on cops and courts.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that we could ever completely eliminate incarceration. We don’t live in a perfect world, after all. But getting rid of prisons is a good goal to aim for.
I think thats a fantastic answer, thanks.
Vibes based “feels like” over empirical data based (hard evidence). “It feels like bloodletting is a more effective cure for sepsis than intensive antibiotic treatment.” That’s how that sounds.
All the time you spend asking questions and disagreeing you could as well spend actually searching, reading, watching videos.
That’s not how a discussion works. Sure I could sit and do that by myself. I have done a good bit of looking into the topic. That’s why I posed the question in the first place. But the point of a thread here is to ask a question and discuss it. If you think you have an objectively correct solution, lay it out. You linked a singular BBC article about a sigular tiny population country (1/60th the size) with completely different social, systemic and economic issues than faced in the US. Is that all the empirical data you’re talking about? I’m just trying to have a talk about the subject. Typically part of a discussion includes opinions and how one feels about the topic. Again if you have hard data that provides an objective actionable solution please provide it.
Some people absolutely are born fucked up, but way, way more people are just born into fucked up situations and neglected until they explode.
"Simply put, the better alternative to prison is to create and put people in social environments that don’t tolerate crime in the first place. " what does that look like in practice, if not prison/execution.
It looks like early social intervention that helps people succeed without breaking the law. The reason American society is this fucked up is the fallacy that everyone is responsible for themselves. Absolutely none of the rich would be rich without extensive support given to them in every aspect of their lives.
Not to mention enough money to buy judges, and other privilege. Brock Turner.
Exactly! Eliminate the root cause of a problem and it will work its way out of the system. Never works! People are too stupid.
