It’s a movie starring his nephew in the lead role, approved by his estate, and by all accounts it just feels like an attempt to whitewash him. This is a man who was accused of being a serial child molester, settled with a family out of court for $25 million just to avoid a trial (Chandler), and openly admitted he slept in the same bed as kids while he was an adult (Bashir interview), among other things. I don’t really see what there is to debate.
Anything pointing this out gets backlash on movie-related subreddits, which I find wild. It makes me wonder, if Epstein could sing and dance, would he have gotten a biopic too? Would people be defending him like this?
We will never have the truth in our entire lives. But! I kind of see how MJ could actually not be a pedo, but just a special flavor of weirdo.
Imagine that you are born into a family of 8 (2 came shortly after) that live in 2 bedroom home. Paretns are working class and an oppressed minority, so are you. At age 5 parents put you in a family band where they forced you to play and punished for mistakes made during rehearsals and performances. Time goes by. Your band becomes a sensation. You are the front man. You grow out of it and go solo. You are consistently the most famous artist. All eyes on you. Everyone knows each and every step you make, in tiny details.
All that while your childhood was spent never having own corner, never having time to play with other children. You are constantly performing everywhere. Your life is not like “the other kids”.
Now you are famous as hell with a millions to your name. You can do pretty much anything. And you, of course, might get that feeling of wasted time that you probably can catch up with. You attempt to create a real Neverland, spend tons of time with children, try to make their lives magical and wonderful. You do things for childer that you’ve dreamed you’d like to have when you were a child yourself. BUT you are at the age of 30 and every one assumes that you diddle children. Which, again, might be true. We cant possibly deny false accusations in favor of getting rich by settlements. And that baby over the balcony didnt help either.
I, honestly, feel bad for him. Great musician, vocals are top notch and unmatched. Dancing moves out of this world. Great showmanship. Terrible personal life full of abuse, discrimination, specualtions, accusations, failed childhood. Poor guy. He was fucked up in head. Maybe not in pedofilic way. But he was certainly not fine. All that life experience plus super likely drug abuse since we are talking about show biz.
From hearing Macaulay Vulking tell it, it sounds exactly like that. Like Jackson was stuck as a child and just wanted childhood friends and sleepovers. Weird, sure but nothing sexual. He has other accusers, but I really dont know if that was just people being creeped out by his weirdness or not and misinterpreting things.
We will never know. But coming to the fact that after death not so much surfaced, I am pretty sure poor guy was just unstable mentally and not a pedo like Epstein.
His life is something few if any of us could bare. No flashy movie will be able to show it in full picture.
At the very least they could have made a better movie that acknowledged the abuse and how screwed up he became because of it. Would be a far better story too, the movie is essentially just an extended highlights reel
I agree. Movie is plain cash grab made up out of highlights of MJs life. Nothing “true” is in this movie besides already widely known facts.
It is just weird to me that OP lines up MJ with someone like Epstein. I just feel that these are two different types of creep that cant be really compared.
No. Biopics always are a watered down version of their real life. Ita basicly a “best hits of”
Those last two questions could easily be under a Chris Brown post. And he’s still touring.
I have a friend who worked for, and alongside MJ (they’re credited on at least one album). They became a personal friend and have a ton of amazing stories and insane memorabilia. On the day Michael died, his phone rang and rang with a LOT of people wishing him condolences.
They tell me that MJ never really got a childhood, and in some ways lived his childhood through other children. My friend spent a couple nights at his Neverland ranch with his own kids and tells me that he trusted MJ and doesnt believe for a minute that he was actually guilty of anything untoward, and that things like “sleepovers” really did happen but were really from a place of innocence and MJ just wanting to have that childlike experience that he didn’t get.
I hear stories like this, and I think the part people stumble over is that it’s very common for kids to explore their bodies and each other’s at sleep overs.
It’s not that hard to imagine his sleepovers being ordinary, kids sleepovers and also an environment in which he crossed some boundaries. That’s very common at sleepovers.
that it’s very common for kids to explore their bodies and each other’s at sleep overs.
Yeah I don’t think so. I am way over 30 years old and never heard of that.
Well, I have
Damn. I’m sorry to hear that.
what why ? there is nothing to be sorry about… clarification : no adult was ever involved to my knowledge
I’ve never heard that from anyone.
Well, I have regular sleepovers with my wife and I can tell you that at least once a month there is some exploring
Lots of child molesters have sad origin stories. Whoop dee doo, he didn’t have a childhood. He still molested kids
That’s the thing, though, we really don’t know that he did. He did some stuff people think is pretty suspicious, but there are genuine credibility issues with the accusers. It’s not impossible that there’s truth to the allegations, but from what I’ve seen, it’s more likely that greedy people took advantage of that suspicious behavior to milk him for money.
Your friend’s anecdote or the victims testimony… That’s a tough one.
Aren’t “anecdote” and “testimony” technically the same level of trustworthiness?
“too woke” was invented by big sleep to sell more Zzzz…
I’m not seeing this movie because I’m not sure whether he was a child molester or not. There are rumours now that he actually protected kids from Epstein but I can’t decide what to believe.
I do believe he molested children, although I think the reason we have trouble accepting it is that I think there are a bunch of types of molestation, and we as a culture have a poor understanding of what these are, and so we struggle to recognize them.
Epstein, for instance, sought the youngest possible post-pubescent girls in order to get off on taking their innocence.
Jackson, imo, sought out intimate friendships with prepubescent children for companionship, and those unsupervised interactions included nudity and touching of an inappropriate nature.
Both are child abuse. But they look different. Jackson got away with it (and still does, in a sense) because we don’t understand his motivations the way we can for Epstein, so we can’t recognize what happened.
those unsupervised interactions included nudity and touching of an inappropriate nature.
This is unproven, right?
“too woke” is a term you really gotta pull out of your vocabulary. Not celebrating the life of a serial child predator isn’t something that should make you feel self conscious. It’s weaponized to make you sit down, shut up and not ask questions. Amplified by the same people who deserve the most scruntiy.
Honestly reading this was a bummer.
interesting that you should mention epstein because when macaulay culkin was interviewed about that a while ago he brought up mj. mac said that one time as a child, he was scheduled to go to epsteins island when jackson called out of the blue to ask if he wanted a tour of the neverland estate. since jackson was famous, mac and his agent went to neverland, and he and jackson apparently became friends. mac stressed that he had never even gotten a creepy vibe, just that michael genuinely liked children.
maybe this was entirely coincidental, i don’t know. but there is a chance that michael knew about epstein in the 90s and tried to help people steer clear.
all i know is that culkin seems like a good guy. he’s called out bad practices and abuse in the industry before, to his own detriment.
Edit: Apparently that interview was faked. bummer.
Mac has defended Michael for years but the Epstein tie is untrue
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/macaulay-culkin-michael-jackson-epstein/
oh that’s unfortunate. i’ll add a clarification.
I have a theory about Michael Jackson. First, a little background for reference. I am not a fan of MJ or his music. I respect his talent and what he did with it, but it’s not really my style. Also, I was a child when the accusations started. We all heard and told the jokes about him diddling little boys. I have no reason to root for or against Michael’s innocence.
That being said, I don’t think he did anything inappropriate.
I could totally be wrong. I wasn’t there and I’m not going to claim that my theory is undeniable truth, but after watching a few of his interviews, I noticed that he never acted like he did anything wrong. I get that someone without remorse would act like that, but typically they know what they did was wrong, and they lie and sneak their way around any implication of involvement. Not MJ. When asked about his “sleepovers” he never denied them. He consistently said “Yes, I did invite them over for sleepovers. Yes, we often shared a bed. We would stay up late watching movies and fall asleep in the bed. That’s what a sleepover is.” It didn’t feel like a predator denying abuse. It felt more like asking a ten year old how his sleepover went. They’d tell you honestly what they did, if they slept in the same bed, and wouldn’t think anything was weird about it, because they’re just kids.
Combine that with the abuse he suffered as a kid. His father treated those kids like a troop of trained dogs. Constantly practicing, constantly performing, always bringing in more money for the family. Michael was a superstar around age 6, and did not slow down until he was an adult, away from his dad and performing for himself.
I think that Michael Jackson never really grew up. He named his ranch Neverland, from the story of Peter Pan, the boy who never grew up. I think MJ felt like HE WAS Peter Pan. He had no childhood, and never developed like the rest of us. He was a 10 year old mind in the body of an adult. I don’t think the amusement park in his backyard or the pet chimp were bait to lure children in, I think he just really wanted to live in an amusement park, race go karts, and hang out with like minded children like any insanely wealthy pre-pubescent boy would. Many of the children he hung out with have said that nothing happened, including Macaulay Culkin, who was his bestie for quite a few years. Even after MJ’s death, he said “He never did anything to me. I never saw him do anything. And especially at this flash point in time, I’d have no reason to hold anything back. The guy has passed on. If anything - I’m not gonna say it would be stylish or anything like that, but right now is a good time to speak up. And if I had something to speak up about, I would totally do it. But no, I never saw anything; he never did anything.”
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe Macaulay was groomed and helped MJ abuse other kids and cover it up, but I think Michael was just a emotionally undeveloped abuse victim trying to reclaim the childhood he never got to experience.
There’s a conspiracy floating around that Jackson became aware of the human trafficking to the ultrawealthy and he was smeared and possibly killed for it. No real evidence but it’s a fun one to think about.
That’s your idea of fun to think about?
Corey Feldman also said that while almost everyone in Hollywood sexually abused him as a child, Michael Jackson is the one person that didn’t. He did also say that he doesn’t defend MJ anymore because others have accused him though.
To nitpick: it’s fair to say his relationships with children were inappropriate. The stipulated behavior crosses a lot of lines of propriety.
The stipulated behavior doesn’t amount to being harmful or abusive.
Yeah, I can see that if you define inappropriate as “against societal norms”. I intended the word to mean abusive or sexual in nature.
I think even what we do know about his relationship with children was harmful, just not to the same extent as rape.
Even if he was just having sleepovers with kids, that’s not a healthy thing for Michael or the kids. For one, it sends very confusing signals to the kids in terms of what is acceptable behavior. Secondly, it dragged these kids into Michael’s own traumas (assuming that is the cause of the behavior).
I’m not sure if any of it would rise to a legal level of wrongdoing, but I don’t think anyone was really looking out for the kids best interests regardless of what was really going on.
It was not just sleepovers.
Good argument, definitely provided valid proof or even anything that can hint at it and you also held an objective view and humility like the comments above…
///ssssss
You should feel bad about yourself for being so dumb and lazy to have written that comment. (And to be clear, I say nothing against or for any views here).
I could totally be wrong.
Sadly, you are. Would multiple firsthand witness accounts and more wtf-episodes than you imagine change your mind? If so, you should change it. The documentary is damning.
How often did he call one of the boys and ask them to retrieve their bloody underwear from the trash so the cops don’t find it? Well, at least once that we know of. And 100 more things like that.
Interesting take on a grown man who was regularly spending the night alone with young boys in his bed.
Super abnormal behavior and when you couple that with his security for that wing of the house along with the alleged victim testimony, he seems guilty as fuck. I don’t want it to be true, but there’s too much smoke for there not to be a fire.
Maybe. Like I said, I don’t know for sure that I’m right, and I’ll admit it’s totally strange behavior for a normal adult man, but I do think there’s a chance that we’re injecting our own perverted assumptions on something we can’t understand.
Seriously, watch Leaving Neverland and see what you think. It’s astounding. You will be like
Just for giggles, I chose to check the wiki for leaving neverland…
Safechuck says Jackson eventually replaced him with Brett Barnes; Robson claims he was replaced by the actor Macaulay Culkin, who is two years older, because Jackson preferred prepubescent boys
Funny, Culkin explicitly says nothing ever happened. Culkin must just be lying though, right? One of the people in that documentary said he was the next in line, so that’s that.
He’s interviewed at the end of the documentary. It’s worth it.
A quick scan of wikipedia is not sufficient.
Ok but it’s easy for a documentary to make you go insert shocked gif here if they just lie about things
Should I also watch Loose Change because it’s compelling and would leave me flabbergasted if I didn’t do any other research?
One of the two kids who the documentary follows makes an outrageous claim that we already know is fake based on the word of the person who allegedly experienced it. Just because you enjoyed it doesn’t mean it’s accurate.
I don’t even have any skin in he game (I don’t like Jackson’s music, personally), but the rhetoric around the man has always been contentious, and not always consistent. I’m not going to waste tons of time on a subject I don’t care about by watching a documentary that I already know includes a major falsehood from one of the primary subjects.
Honestly, I wasted more of my life on this subject than I wanted just responding here, so duces.
Seen it, you are clearly dumb enough to fall for a ton of wishy washy nothing “proof”.
I wouldn’t say “too woke” at all.
Not having met the man, though, I’m not at liberty to decide his guilt or innocence, how mature or simple he was, how platonic or pedophilic he was.
I’d always caution against unassailable certainty, but you decide your own safety level.
I don’t think it’s fair to compare Jackson to Epstein. Also, he has never been convicted, whereas Epstein was. I feel like “separate the art from the artist” applies and everyone has a different line for that. Like how people still support Polanski despite how despicable he is.
Michael is probably the hardest case of this too.
Its easy not to support, discuss or enable Kevin Spacey because while he was a brilliant actor in a few movies he wasnt irreplaceable. Michael on the other hand was likely one of the most popular and influential musical artists of the 20th century. He was a cultural phenomenon.
A lot of allegations and concerning behaviors absolutely but no convictions and a lot of people who knew him who defend him absolutely. A lot of potential substance abuse or mental health issues but also a lot of financial reasons why people may have alleged things that didnt happen…
Michael is a very grey case.
I don’t really know anything about Michael Jackson other than Thriller, Vitiligo, and the pedophilia debate. I have an easy time not engaging with his art.
I feel like “separate the art from the artist” applies and everyone has a different line for that.
yeah some people still like stuff rapists and hate hags make. it’s amazing how people can shut off their brains and consume because it’s easy and comfortable.
Lot of famous, rich, and powerful people haven’t been convicted. Doesn’t mean they are innocent though.
Edit: weird amount of epstein defenders in this thread…
It also doesn’t mean that they are either.
Of course. Just seems really fucking weird in the context of Epstein to be talking about never convicted like there aren’t some massive fucking asterisks involved.
Entirely fair. I’m just tired of this MJ story that wont end
I agree that it’s not fair to compare Michael Jackson to Epstein. Although both engaged in illegal activities, a 16 year old at least has the ability to say, “No, I will not give you a handjob for $200.” The seven and eight year olds Michael abused didn’t have the ability to walk away.
It’s similar to murder charges. Although a highschooler is legally a child, they are still culpable enough for their actions to be tried as an adult. The children Michael targeted would not. The worse part of this situation is that parents voluntarily gave him their children. They should have been tried and investigated.
Well… Melania got a movie too, and she and her husband were both best friends with Epstein and Maxwell.
Michael Jackson was a complicated person. Extremely talented singer, songwriter, choreographer, dancer and performer from a very young age. Clearly had a strange relationship with his own race, age, and physical features. Clearly had a difficult time relating to people in a normal human way. Had a well-known child-like personality. A lot of rumors and allegations around him, and he did a lot of extremely questionable and problematic things that if nothing else, poured a lot of fuel on that particular fire. Fucked up his body with plastic surgery. Died of a doctor-supervised overdose…
What I’m getting at is that a film is about telling a story, and I do think Michael Jackson had a fascinating life story with a lot of highs and lows. I’m not sure that he’s comparable to Epstein, and even if he was, I think that it depends how the film portrays him and his life.
I’ve heard there’s also a conspiracy theory out there that Michael Jackson was either chemically or physically castrated to maintain his singing voice.
If that happened early on in his life, that could actually explain some of the pathology behind what made him him.
Nope, other famous people have heard his real voice, such is apparently surprisingly deep
MJ sounding like James Earl Jones off camera would be… it’d be something.
I mean, Melania’s movie was unapologetic whitewashing form what I’ve heard, so maybe not the best comparison.
I do agree that there is compelling story to be told from the lens of building a revolutionary music career. I think simply making a movie isn’t inherently whitewashing, and there are compelling reasons to make a movie about MJ other than as a PR stunt so I’ll wait and see what comes out.
Well… I was referring to “It makes me wonder, if Epstein could sing and dance, would he have gotten a biopic too?”.
Obviously Melania’s movie was essentially a corporate gift to the Trump family/administration, despite the fact that they were very close friends with Epstein. I don’t think it was a serious attempt at telling a genuine story about a strange person’s life, even if it could have been. Donald Trump has more proven connections to convicted sex traffickers than MJ ever had, just as a matter of fact, and even that didn’t prevent him and his family from taking over the world or having a movie made about his fake-ass wife.
That’s not really the point… I should say that I don’t know anything about either movie and I’m not that interested in seeing them. I never even heard that there was a Michael Jackson biopic in production until seeing this threat.
But my point is that film-making is a storytelling medium. A good filmmaker can tell a compelling story about good people and bad people alike.
Good or bad, Michael Jackson is an interesting character who lived an interesting life. As such, it would be possible to make a great movie about him, just like someone could make a great movie about Hitler, Kim Jung Un, Donald Trump, etc.
Will this movie be good? How will this movie depict MJ? Will he be treated as a sympathetic showbiz kid who never had the chance to grow up and live a normal life? Will he be treated as a pedophilic monster who systematically raped and trafficked children? …who knows… Ideally a good MJ biopic would drill down somewhere close to whatever the truth happens to be, depicting a complex and troubled person who lived an extraordinary (in the literal sense) life.
If it’s just a cash grab by his estate to whitewash his character and ignore all of the deeply troubling things that happened in his life (both to him and by him), then it’s just not a good movie.
Comparing someone to Melania to try to garner sympathy is wild
Thinking that’s the subtext of what I was saying is wild…
No, You are not too woke. However, being accused of a crime is not the same as committing the crime. Sleeping in bed with a child isn’t a crime. Settling out of court isn’t an admission of guilt. Making a biopic about Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is a no brainer for me.
I guess it depends. Is it factual and balanced or does it ignore that creepy part of his life? Being approved by the e$tate makes me doubt that.
IMO, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. Much has been said of his “child-like wonder and innocence”, but he wasn’t special needs or anything; he was still an adult! Like the rest of us, he made choices knowing how they would be viewed. Sure, maybe one family made shit up, hoping for a payday. But to then continue doing the same things after the initial accusation, bringing children into your bed at night…!? Personally, I would have installed cameras everywhere, hired a childcare person to always be there with the children, and, y’know, not have them sleep in my bed overnight. It would prove there was nothing going on, protect his reputation and fortune, give the parents peace of mind, etc. But he didn’t do any of that…
So some people’s struggles get labelled as “special needs” and are treated differently, while others are viewed with suspicion and aren’t even attempted to be understood?
Extortion schemes can be based on lies, too. When you imagine the only reason anyone could enjoy interacting with children or playing with dogs, is because they fuck them every moment alone, you are the one that is deeply perverted.
I’ve been around for the whole ride, and all I can say is anyone (other than alleged victims) who says they definitively know what happened is lying.
It’s a fact that MJ suffered abuse as a child and that turned him into a weird adult. It’s a fact that he had problematic behavior towards children.
I’ve always felt that his closeness to children was more about trying to be a child than fuck one, but my opinion is just that and carries no particular weight. I was never a super fan of his, and hated his ubiquity while I was growing up so I don’t think I’m biased towards being charitable with him.
A part of me laments the loss of childhood innocence that was present in the seventies. Sure, it was against a backdrop of unspoken abuse and exploitation, but there really was a time when children could be naked together or around certain adults and it wasn’t weird or gross or creepy. I grew up showering with other boys in gym and sports and swimming and bathing naked in lakes and rivers.
The world is different now with cameras everywhere. That time is lost to us. It would be creepy as fuck to try to recreate that. But it colors my perception of what was clear warning signs then vs now. There are people in this thread post arguing about whether a kid ever saw his penis, but I’m telling you there was a time that wouldn’t have been as weird as it is today. Because there was casual, innocent nudity, it wasn’t all sexualized the way it is today.
That all being said, there was a lot of really bad looking behavior and at some point where there’s smoke there’s fire. You’d have to think he would have the self-awareness of the perception that he was being creepy and inappropriate, and why wouldn’t a person change their behavior?
At the end of the day I treat him like a likely predator. I wouldn’t let my kids go near him if he were alive today. But he is someone I’m not comfortable saying was definitely as sick and twisted as some insist. He might have been. He probably was. But he might credibly also have been a really fucked up person who wanted the childhood that was stolen from him back and he couldn’t have it no matter now much money he spent.
